Wellness Talk Radio Interview with Robert Kiyosaki on Money and Kindness

Kris: You’re listening to Wellness TalkRadio. I’m Kris Costello. Thanks for joining us.

We are very pleased today to have Robert Kiyosaki of Rich Dad, Poor Dad fame, and his sister, the Ven. Tenzin Kacho, a Buddhist nun ordained by the Dalai Lama. They’re going to be talking with us about their book, Rich Brother, Rich Sister. Thanks so much, Robert and Tenzin, for joining us today.

In the front of your book, there’s a remarkable quote by F. Scott Fitzgerald. “The test of first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”

So, Robert, I wanted to ask you, a little bit, about what that quote means to you.

Robert: I thought it was great quote. So many people operate in a world of right and wrong [that] they become polarized. You’re conservative or you’re liberal; and if you’re one or the other, you can’t be both. I just think that this idea of right and wrong is kind of a damaging idea.

As one of my teachers, Buckminster Fuller, says, we were given a right foot and a left foot, not a right foot and a wrong foot.

The point is that, there’s always two points of view out there, and we need to increase our ability to, shall we say, allow another point of view. Then we have a better chance for peace.

Kris: Tenzin, what is your interpretation of that quote?

Tenzin: I think that it’s a quote really helping us to expand and broaden our view and our attitudes at life. We live in a global community, now, and we can’t really remain isolated. Even in some of the smaller towns there are people from other countries living with us, now. I believe that when we hold a very narrow view about our attitudes of politics or culture or religion, then we cut out the opportunity to really engage with other points of view.

Kris: Growing up, how did this affect you? Were you exposed to different points of views in your growing up? You talk a lot, in your book, about your childhood in Hawaii.

Tenzin: Absolutely. My mother, particularly. [She] became involved as the staff nurse for one of the Peace Corps training centers in Hawaii; one of the largest in the United States. We were working with people from all over Asia, learning about their food, their culture, their language.

Both my parents really encouraged us to engage with people of other cultures, even around food. She said, “You know, one way that you can just create harmony with others is to enjoy their food.”

Kris: Food is such an important part of it, and we talk a lot about that on the show, about food and how it can create health.

Now the other quote that I’ve just found to be a wonderful quote in the beginning of your book is from His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and it is, “My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.”

Tenzin, can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Tenzin: Working as a hospice chaplain, I’m finding that I pull in and work with people from so many different cultures and faiths. Essentially what people respond to is kindness. Although we were both raised as Christians and I became a Buddhist nun, there’s so much where there’s the meeting of the heart rather than anything else. We work on that level in hospice, just paying attention to what the person’s needs are.

That and dealing with other aspects of our business, we really respond to kindness. I think that transcends religion, it transcends different points of view.

Kris: It’s such an important part, helping people in the world [so] they feel that there’s some kindness out there for them.

Now, Robert, what do you say about that?

Robert: I would say it’s one of the toughest lessons. I personally had to learn kindness. As I said, I grew up playing football and hunting; and went to military school and then into the Marine Corps. Kindness is not a valued trait.

As I grow older I’m finding it’s something I definitely need to put focus on, thought and practice. Kindness actually comes from the heart, so it’s really stretching inside of me.

It’s been quite a magical journey for me to learn to be kinder in my dealing[s] with other people. I would say that’s one of the biggest benefits for me personally in writing this book with my sister was learning to be a little kinder [and] a little bit more patient. My whole upbringing—like I said, from playing football all the way through the Marine Corps—was not about kindness. It was almost the exact opposite.

Kris: Right. I found that fascinating in the book. That really comes through, that each of you have really developed very differently.

Now how do you explain that, coming from the same family? How did you turn out with such different views of the world?

Tenzin: I think that a big reason why we struck out [in] different ways is the attitude of our parents to just try what we wanted. They did not impose upon us very strict regiments of how they wanted us to be. We took full advantage of that and really struck out on our own.

Kris: Robert?

Robert: I don’t know why I am internally a violent person. I don’t mean I’m physically violent or anything like that. I don’t have the normal nerve endings most people do, which was very good for me as a pilot in Viet Nam. When most people are afraid, I’m actually quite excited about things. Even today, I go big game hunting and all this, and the more dangerous something is, the happier I am.

Possibly that’s what makes me an entrepreneur. I thrive on the adrenaline of excitement and danger. I just cannot stand boredom on the other side of it. I’ve really had to, in writing this book, make a tremendous change of heart, especially as I get older. I couldn’t just keep up my normal ways. I just grew up that way. I don’t know why, because my parents were not that way.

Why am I a person who loves guns? I have no idea. Why do I like to go hunting? I don’t know. It doesn’t make sense to me. Why does somebody love golf, because that doesn’t make sense to me either. [Laughing]

Kris: Right.

Robert: We have different interests and different likes and dislikes.

Kris: One thing you talked about in the book, Robert, is Buckminster Fuller [who] was [an] extremely important mentor in your life. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that whole experience?

Robert: Well, Bucky Fuller is considered one of the most accomplished Americans in history. He has [numerous] patents [under] his name. Harvard considers him one of their greatest graduates. American Institute of Architecture considers him the greatest architect.

They called Fuller the “world’s friendly genius.” John Denver was inspired by him. He called him “the grandfather of the future.”

When I met Bucky I was totally into capitalism and making money and all this. One day, I was up in Kirkwood, California, right above Lake Tahoe [and] he asked me what my life’s purpose was. There was probably a hundred people there.

“What’s your purpose, young man?”

I said, “To get rich.”

In front of these hundred people, he scolded me publicly, and he said, “Get rich? Get rich? What a waste of a good mind. Why don’t you do something with your life?”

I said, “Well, getting rich is doing something with my life.”

I think what he was trying to say to me, was what my parents were trying to say to me, was what, I think, war was teaching me. It was to maybe make a change of direction on my life.

That was back in 1981. My life took a whole completely different path after that. Instead of being just a capitalist with factories in Taiwan and Korea and Hawaii, I suddenly had to ask myself, What’s my purpose in life? Am I just here to make money?

After he scolded me, then I was in turmoil. I did find that emptiness that a lot of people talk about. Is it just the money? Is this all there is? Is it just a bigger house and nicer cars?

That’s what he gave to me. Finally, back in 1984, after three years of studying him, I said, “I’m going to find out what my life’s purpose is.” That’s what Rich Brother, Rich Sister is about, because in 1985, my wife Kim and I took a leap of faith, and instead of just making money for me, I wanted to find out what I was supposed to do with my life.

That’s when I ran back into my sister, Tenzin. In 1985, she became an ordained nun by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I became a teacher—something I swore I’d never become—and I saw her as a nun. If you had seen us back in high school, there’s no way you would have ever said I would become an author or teacher because I was a horrible student; and there was no way you’d ever say my sister was going to be a nun.

That’s a lot of what this book is about, the leap of faith to find out what your purpose in life is. I’m actually a lot happier because I work as a teacher, now; more than just a capitalist making money for myself.

Kris: So your life has a lot more meaning than when you started out, it sounds like.

Robert: Yes. Making money has always been pretty easy for me, but today I don’t need any more money. I still work, because money is important, but my work is more important than the money, now. And that’s a very big difference. I just work because I enjoy my work.

Kris: And making a difference for other people.

Tenzin: Yes. Well, I can tell my side on how the book came about for me, too.

I had been living a very simple life, bedding as a monastic, praying, meditating, really plumbing the depths of our inner riches. I was ignoring the basic needs of my physical life and really thinking that if I lived my life well, then everything would be fine.

I just was broadsided when I was diagnosed with cancer and later with heart disease; particularly with heart disease because my insurance didn’t want to cover most of my bill. My out-of-pocket expenses were huge and this is one reason why Robert and I began looking at this condition. It doesn’t affect just myself. Really looking at the baby boomers who are aging and how we’re all getting older, life is getting on and our health bills are only going to increase.

Even though I was living this wonderful life, I got hit with mortality issues and big bills. I realized that living in L.A. was not heaven. I had some basic needs to take care of plus the insurance companies were knocking on my door. This was a big wake-up call for me.

Kris: I can only imagine what that must have been like. How was it having a brother that you knew was so wealthy?

Tenzin: I have been attending Robert’s seminars over the years. I find that Robert is more of a mentor to me as I go through my life. One of Robert’s talents is that he’s able to distill some of these concepts about finance into more simple terms. For Robert to teach me, he has to keep distilling it down to very elementary Monopoly kind of issues so that I can grasp what he’s talking about. I was really ignoring the financial aspect of my life.

Reaching out to Robert, he was really helping me stretch my understanding. I was one of these people who was really waiting for my center or living a good life as a monastic [to] take care of me, [like] these people who expect that the government is going to pay their retirement later on.

When I became a nun, I didn’t sign up for a pension plan as a monastic. Somehow I was just ignoring the side of taking care of the financial needs; so I’m learning a lot from Robert. We came up with this idea of the book so that it could help balance this polarized view. If you don’t pay attention to one side of the balance sheet, it’s going to go out of balance.

Kris: And it wasn’t until you became diagnosed with the cancer?

Tenzin: When I had the heart disease, in particular.

Kris: And then you went to Robert.

Tenzin: You know, I’d always been struggling as a single parent. It was Robert who came up with the idea [and said], “Why don’t we write this book? It will be an interesting way for myself to make some passive income, but to share our story and to perhaps, and hopefully, help others with their own dilemma.”

Kris: And so that’s how Rich Brother, Rich Sister came to be?

Robert: What was happening was, I was writing checks. I bought her a home and all this, but it goes against my total belief. I don’t believe in giving people money. In Sunday school [you learn] that if you teach a man to fish, you feed him for life; but you give him a fish, you feed him for a day. So to sit here and just write checks . . ..

I said, “Look. I’d be willing to share with you what I know.” My sister has a very valuable gift to give and a very powerful message being a Western Buddhist nun.

I said, “I will teach you what I know, but you’ve got to play the rules of my game: capital.” That was how we came up with this. I said, “I’m not going to sit here and just keep writing checks. I’m not God [and] I’m not the government.” It goes against everything I believe in. I want to teach people to fish, and that’s what I’m doing with my sister.

Tenzin: And I’m learning that praying and meditating isn’t going to pay my bills.

Kris: I would think that’s a big lesson. A hard lesson.

Tenzin: It has been a very interesting lesson and one that I am turning my life around now to share with others. It’s a big leap, again, to show that I had this flaw with my head in the sand about this. But it really is about balancing out our lives.

Kris: And now, what is your experience with cancer; the medical bills, and having to ask Robert for help with the financial part of that? Have you learned a lot about the medical system in this country through your experience?

Tenzin: I’m learning more. What happened with the cancer—that happened in 1998—was that friends took care of me. And because friends took care of me, I remained ignorant about finances. I thought I’d always be taken care of.

When the heart disease hit—that was two years ago—I did have some insurance, really bad insurance. My out-of-pocket expenses, just for that, were over $22,000 last year. That’s a big wake-up call, when you look at how you’re going to pay this. It’s not something that is small change for someone like me.

I’ve been realizing that there’s so many people, not only in my own community, but people in general, who think that the government is going to take care of them. Or finding jobs that are just going to give them a good pension. What’s happening with our economy today is that it may not be able to follow through and take care of a padded life for the rest of your life.

Kris: Robert, did you learn anything about the medical system through this experience?

Robert: I have the wherewithal, the money to—I don’t need the insurance. I have insurance. But what I spend my money on is health. I don’t like medicine. If I could stay away from—you know, there’s an old Irish proverb that goes, “If I knew where I was going to die, I wouldn’t go there.” I suspect I’m going to die in a hospital, so every time I go past one, I drive really quickly to get away from those things.

So I spend a lot of money on health: gyms, I go to naturopaths, acupuncturists; anybody else who’s almost the alternative to medicine. I think by the time you need medicine, it’s too late. That’s my belief.

I have the money to pay for the best, should I say, natural health care, or preventative health care. I carry vitamins around, and like I say, I go see my acupuncturist. I go to hyperbaric chambers. All those things cost money; time and money. But I’d rather protect my health than let the doctors take care of me later on.

Kris: We talk a lot about that on this show and give people different alternatives; one of the main ones being, of course, food and just keeping your food very simple and wholesome.

Tenzin: Right.

Kris: If you had one message, Robert, that you would like Rich Brother, Rich Sister to get out to people, what would it be?

Robert: Well, the purpose of this book is to answer the questions: what am I here on earth to do? Am I living the life I was born to lead? What’s my purpose in life? [That is] the same question that Bucky Fuller asked me back in 1981. What’s your purpose on earth?

I think that’s a very important question, because it puts meaning into life, other than just eating, drinking and sucking air down. What can we give back to the planet? That was the question that Fuller asked me back in 1981, and it took me a long time to figure it out.

I said, “I know how to make money. That’s what I know. Not too many people know that, that well.” I just started to give what I was given and that’s when my life turned around. The same [with] my sister: to take the leap of faith in 1985 and to go from what I call an ordinary, private citizen to all of a sudden this nun with a shaved head and robes and all this; that is a leap of faith.

The book is about really seeking your purpose in life. I think once you find that, that’s the spirit coming out. I would not be well-known if I had just used my gift to make money for me. The moment I started to teach others—you teach people to fish—I think that’s why my book Rich Dad, Poor Dad became an international bestseller, and things like this. I was simply giving my gift, and my sister is simply sharing her gift which is her knowledge of the Buddhist philosophy.

That’s why we get together, is to give more. That’s what I think life’s about. I think there’s just too much greed in the world today [and] that’s why we have problems. We got together with this book here so I can support my sister giving her gift, also. She works in a hospice and she works with dying one-on-one, but I said, “Your gift has to be given to the world, and the more you leverage your gift, then the universe [will] ‘Give and you shall receive.”’

Tenzin: Yes. Robert’s taught me a lot about. If I only think on this small level, then it’s true, I can only help one person individually. In expanding my gift, I can share so much more of all that I’ve been learning. This way, too, [is] really about balancing our lives and looking at personal balance sheets in our life.

Now I’m having to expand my thinking and this is what we need to get, is to expand our thinking and see how, in this difficult economy, what we put into our mind and our thoughts can raise us or depress us. Because the mind is so powerful, we have to check our thinking and we have to really look at balancing this out. If we don’t pay attention to one side, it’s going to knock us over.

Kris: How did you come to find your gift, Tenzin?

Tenzin: I just kept checking and looking at what I wanted in life and what I wanted to study. I became very excited with the Buddhist teachings. Now that I’ve been a monastic for almost twenty-four years, and been called upon to teach more and more, I can’t just hide in that. I can’t hide in not teaching. So, it’s been a real stretch in putting myself out there, learning a lot; working as the chaplain at the Air Force Academy when I was in Colorado.

It was very odd to be a Buddhist monk defense contractor. Now it’s very congruent for me, working in hospice, because I’m learning at the same time as deepening my own practice. Writing the book has stretched me beyond just helping a few individuals into understanding the financial world and where I was in balance; to get my head out of the sand and infuse more meaning into my life.

Kris: And what do you hope that people get from Rich Brother, Rich Sister?

Tenzin: I hope that they, too, can look at taking stock of their life now [and] noticing, because we become very passive and reticent in our lives; and to see that they are challenging themselves today and are always looking to see. Even though I became a nun and I took my leap of faith some time ago, it’s something that you need to keep checking in on, because I can still be lacking intensity or being a couch potato in my own life and just accepting it as it is.

It’s really challenging myself to look at meaning continually.

Kris: So, a lot of self examination and probably meditation?

Tenzin: Yes. Lots of meditation; but also, stretching to work with a wider audience and sharing my gifts as well.

Kris: I also wanted to ask you, if you can describe for our listeners, a little bit about what you have learned from His Holiness, the Dalai Lama?

Tenzin: I’ve learned so much from the Dalai Lama, even from a distance. I’ve worked somewhat closely with him in the past. Even his view of his own studies: he is so willing to test things and try them on; work with scientists, work with cutting edge physicians who are learning about new technology and questioning his own belief systems. I love that sense of inquisitiveness and willingness to change. As he does that, then he gets more confirmation on what does work for him, and he’s willing to throw out other things.

Regarding women—because Buddhism and Buddhist monasticism can be very patriarchal in its way, too—he says women need to take every opportunity they can, and [not] let others hold them back. This is your opportunity. So I feel, as a Western monastic particularly, I don’t have to be riveted down by old, traditional mores. Truly the Dalai Lama has expressed that in his own life, too.

To me, the way he transforms difficulty into things of awakening. He says that losing his country, living in exile, has made him a true person, rather than sitting on a throne, somewhere, in a dusty palace. [It] really changed his life when he got thrown out into the world.

Kris: So the difficulty was a gift.

Tenzin: Yes, transforming difficulties and putting them into practice, how you take it to your advantage.

Kris: So what can you tell people that are struggling? There’s lots of people out there now that are struggling with their health. They’re struggling with financial challenges. What can you offer them?

Tenzin: One thing that the Dalai Lama says, which I think is really beautiful, is that in order to develop compassion for others, you have to have compassion for yourself. You must start there. And I think that’s a really beautiful example because sometimes we forget about ourselves; or sometimes we only think about ourselves and forget about others. We just become too selfish.

So he says compassion for others must start with compassion for oneself.

Kris: That’s very helpful, I think, too. A lot of people get tough on themselves and it doesn’t help their situation.

Now, Robert, I’m interested in what you have to say about the current economic conditions in this country and what your take on that is.

Robert: Well, I think it’s a tragedy that we’ve mismanaged our economy so horribly. It is my favorite subject. The problem is, in my opinion, the relationship between the Federal Reserve Bank and the U.S. Treasury, and their ability to create money out of thin air. That’s going to bring down this great country.

I’m not a Republican or a Democrat, but this guy, George Bush, has just put us so greatly into debt; now Obama’s going to make it even worse. So, it’s basically highway robbery, and I think it’s a tragedy.

The moment they turned the U.S. dollar—in 1971 when Nixon took us off the gold standard—it was the end of America as we know it. 1971 caused the biggest economic boom, but now it’s going to be the biggest economic bust, ever. So I think it’s absolutely a tragedy. I think it’s a tragedy our schools don’t teach kids about money. I think it’s a tragedy that it has to come to an emergency before we evolve.

You look at the auto workers in Detroit. They just can’t keep asking for more money and more benefits; but neither can the government workers [who] keep asking for more money and more benefits without producing more. Capitalism is about producing a better product at a better price. As individuals, we have to keep producing better products at a better price, also, or we’re obsolete.

I just think that’s one of the biggest tragedies of our time, right now. This government, this last few years, last fifty years, is going to wipe out many, many people. Terrible.

. . . financial education, and that’s when I made my change with Dr. Fuller, back in 1985, is I’m going to start teaching what my rich dad taught me about money. Sometimes your own family won’t listen to you. I’m glad my sister started to listen to me about money and the importance of it. Being raised in a Christian family, it was the love of money is the root of all evil and yada, yada, yada.

So, I had to be a closet capitalist in my house and learn how to make money in spite of what my parents thought of me.

Kris: That would be a challenge, I would imagine.

Robert: Oh, it was extremely challenging. My mom and dad were with the Peace Corps and I go in the Marine Corps. But they were also socialists and my rich dad was a capitalist. That’s why I put in the front of the book that you have to have two points of view and see both points of view. I can see being kind to people, but I don’t think giving them money solves the problem. I think it makes the problem worse and it prolongs the ultimate, inevitable end anyway.

Kris: Right. It’s interesting that so many people seem to be on those two polar opposites.

Back to the economy, too. Do you see a way out of this? I hear things like we’re trillions of dollars in debt, and I think, Well, how is that ever going to change? Do you see any ray of hope?

Robert: Well, I don’t see it as good or bad. With this bad economy, I’m making more money than ever before because I’ve trained my mind to do that; going back again to the quote that you have to have two points of view. So I have two different strategies. In a bad economy I’m playing the markets one way; in a good economy, I play another way. So I’m always making money, but that’s what I was trained to do, so I don’t really see it as bad.

Unfortunately, it’s going to wipe [out those] people who are not prepared. I hate to say this, but we might be cruising for another depression, and that’s frightening. I think that it is a tragedy.

We can’t just print money to get out of this problem. That’s what Obama is going to do, and that’s what Bernanke is going to do, and that’s what Paulson is doing. It doesn’t solve the problem. Throughout history, every government that’s printed money, the money has eventually gone to its ultimate value which is zero. Remember? The confederate dollar went to zero. The continental went to zero.

That’s what happens when you have a bank that’s allowed to print as much money as it wants to.

Kris: So did I get a ray of hope? What did I get there?

Robert: Hope is for the hopeless. I like to take action and get smart. I don’t trust my politicians. They’re not bad people. How much did it cost to get Obama elected? Probably $250 million? So that’s a lot of favors he has to return. [Laughing]

Kris: Yes. Good point.

Robert: I believe in taking care of myself and teaching other people who want to learn. I don’t believe in just printing money and giving money. I’m willing to teach those who are willing to learn. If you’re not willing to learn, then go vote for Obama. I’m not Republican or Democrat, so don’t get me wrong.

Kris: Now Tenzin, it sounds like your whole idea about money has evolved quite a bit through writing Rich Brother, Rich Sister.

Tenzin: Yes, it has. I realize that I have surrounded myself with people with my same belief systems, and that’s what we tend to do; is we tend to surround ourselves with people of like mind. I felt that I was doing fine.

When I ask some of the monastics, not just Buddhists but also Catholics and other renunciants; they feel that somehow they’ll be taken care of. I think, especially with the economy changing the way it is, that even churches and temples are going to be challenged in this economic time because the gifts to these places are coming from the kindness of others. If they, too, are challenged, I think that non-profits and monastic orders are also going to be challenged.

With people wanting the government or pension plans or God to give us money, we’ve really got to change our view. It’s a wake-up call, but it’s also a slow process, because I’ve been habituated to think a certain way. It’s really wonderful to change who I hang out with, too.

Kris: Yes, that is a big question. You are talking about the churches . . .

Tenzin: Well, it’s our government, too, because there are a lot of people that are just waiting for social security to kick in. The baby boomers are hitting at what— 10,000 a day [at] social security age—and there are not that many people putting in towards their retirement.

Kris: Have you come to believe that people need to create their own self sufficiency?

Tenzin: I think we all need to look at self sufficiency a lot more. And that’s a huge change of view.

Kris: In what way?

Tenzin: I see, for myself, that I have been steeped in it, for a long, long time. To begin to help myself, I have to start looking differently. Going back to work at age sixty was one thing. Getting a better health care plan was another. Writing this book was a huge stretch from my familiar, safe, secure world into something of being with the public and sharing my story; hoping that it will help others wake up as well.

Kris: And how wonderful that you did write it. It is a very inspiring book. I think people will take a lot from it.

Which brings me to another question for you, Robert. Personally, I’m still working on this one. I came across the word ephemeralization. Can you explain that?

Robert: Ephemeralization means the ability to do everything with nothing, or leverage, or doing more with less. What Dr. Fuller said was nature was ephemeralizing constantly, always doing more and more with less and less. That’s why it goes against the labor union idea of doing less and less for more and more money. [Laughing]

So, as a businessman, I’m constantly ephemeralizing, figuring out how I can do more and more for less and less. For example, I set up a franchise system where people could come and [get a] financial education for free. My task is how I can learn to make money from that by giving first. I’m always constantly looking at how I can do more and more for less and less.

Look at Apple Computers. They give you a better and better computer for a less and less price. You look at what [India] is doing now with cars. Tata Motors is producing cars for $2,500. That’s more than the health care costs inside of a GM car. The reason GM is in trouble is [India] ephemeralized what the U.S. didn’t.

Those are some of the reasons that word ephemeralization, or doing more with less, is such a crucial, crucial principle to learn; especially if you’re going to be in business in this rapidly changing world, today.

Look at the world of books that I’m in right now. People just download books. They don’t go to a bookstore. Amazon is wiping out Borders and Barnes and Noble. Those are examples of ephemeralization doing more with less at a better price.

The companies that are firing their employees: the reason is that they didn’t ephemeralize. They’re not demanding that the company produce more for less. So in my company, we’ve paid bonuses this year, we give them time off. The reason is, as the owner of the company, I’m always focusing on how my company can do more for less. And it’s one of the principles of the world.

Kris: That’s a fascinating concept. Somehow it almost seems Buddhist, to me. I don’t know why.

Robert: I think you’ll understand it when you look at the iPhone. [When the iPhone] came out, it was “x” dollars, and immediately the price went down, performance goes up. Two hundred years ago, we had to walk or ride a horse. Now we climb on a plane and fly. Now we can go on the Web.

I did a seminar in South Africa a month ago, but I did it from Phoenix. I didn’t have to get on a plane and fly for three days to Johannesburg. I just stood in my little office in Phoenix and they beamed me up thirty feet inside this room. There was 2,000 people or something. I made as much money but it cost me a lot less wear and tear. That’s ephemeralization.

So the people who are getting ahead are people who are ephemeralizing financially. And the people that are dying are people who still expect to get paid more to do less. That’s the big disconnect right now.

Kris: So we’re kind of going through that whole process, it sounds like.

Robert: It’s evolution. Right now, the technological world plus God or spirituality is evolving. I think America has become a little bit too corrupt, government’s a little too corrupt, too greedy. Many corporations are too greedy. The labor unions are too greedy. That effects charities and religious organizations. I just think it’s greed.

That’s why, in 1985, I had to figure out how to give before I received. The more I focus on giving, for less and less, the more and more I make.

Kris: And have you found that to be true, also, Tenzin?

Tenzin: I am finding that out. As I work with this book, as I work with others, I am finding more ease and ways of working with this myself.

Robert: We were talking about—because my father was a university professor—and his thing was tenure. Any time I hear a university professor say tenure, I hear the word dinosaur. [Laughing] You’re not supposed to be getting tenure. You’re supposed to be figuring out how you can teach more students at a better price and more effectively. That’s your job.

But all these guys who want to join the police department so [they] can get twenty years and then retire, those are Industrial Age ideas. Information Age ideas should just be how can I serve more people at a better price.

Tenzin: People are also looking for security, rather than real growth or [Inaudible 00:39:10] in service to others.

Kris: And there’s a lot of us out there, so there’s a lot of opportunity, right?

Robert: Massive. Massive opportunity. And that’s what I’m saying. Is the economy bad? Well, it goes back to Fitzgerald saying again, there’s different points of view. To me, this is a great economy. If you wanted to buy a house, now is the time, even in Santa Barbara. Everything is coming down in price, which is wonderful. I don’t know why people are crying.

Kris: And that is a good point. There are good things to this whole experience for people. I know, in our family, we’ve slowed down quite a bit. There’s always that good underneath the challenging part of things, I think.

Tenzin: Yes, and this is where the spirituality kicks in, too, where we have to gain clarity in our own mind, because we are living through very difficult, historical times. [We need to] watch that we don’t get paralyzed or depressed by it, and see what we can do to find other avenues of working with what’s happening.

Robert: I don’t think it’s a difficult time. I just think it’s a changing time. Change with it is the most exciting thing you can do. So, it’s all perception.

Kris: Right. It’s a time of opportunity.

Robert: There is more opportunity now at easier and better prices than ever before. I have businesses in probably fifty countries throughout the world and it’s never been easier to do business throughout the world. Never. I don’t know what people are complaining about.

But if you can’t see it, you can’t see it, because you’ve been trained to think, I’m going to work for the university system and stay there until I get tenure. That was my dad. Whereas my rich dad was exactly the opposite [type of] thinker.

So I had two dads, two points of view, and I chose to listen to my rich dad.

Kris: That is an amazing experience, to have those two different experiences.

Tenzin: What Robert keeps teaching us is to change our point of view and raise our sights and look at opportunity.

Kris: It is always there, in some form, if you reach out to it.

Robert: You look at it this year. The stock market is down forty percent from last year. That’s the stock market having a sale, offering forty percent off. I don’t understand why people are complaining. I am buying more than ever now. I say, “Oh, this is good. The stock market is on sale. Real estate is on sale.”

But people see it as bad. That’s why I think it was appropriate [when you] asked me that opening question about [the] quote I chose for this book. [It is] the ability to see two opposing points of view and operate sanely between them. That’s what intelligence is.

Kris: Yes, we deal with a lot of that on New American Health, where the different ideas about health are just incredible.

Robert: I don’t ask a doctor about vitamins and I don’t ask naturopaths about penicillin.

Kris: Well, you could if you want a lively discussion.

So what’s next with Rich Brother, Rich Sister. Do you have another project in the works? What do you see in the future?

Robert: I think my sister should write what she really knows about, which is karma. She should have a book on that. She should have a book on nirvana, past lives and things that she’s really studied. And I think her advantage is she’s a Western-Asian woman who is studying an ancient Buddhist or Asian religion. So she’s a very good translator for the West.

Kris: That is a very unique perspective.

Tenzin: And Robert’s working on Rich Life, Rich Health and Rich Family.

Robert: I’m writing a book called Rich Health and it’s East[ern] and West[ern] medicine coming out. My cardiologist started out as an acupuncturist and now he’s a heart transplant surgeon for Mayo. Without him, I don’t know if I could have survived. I went through open heart surgery because I was born with a heart defect. Because of him, I came through the operation in flying colors.

But I think if I had gone through my traditional cardiologist, I might not have made it. But my cardiologist—who started off, like I say, as an acupuncturist and iridologist, with the eyes—he comes from a completely different point of view on medicine. So that’s one of my most exciting projects, is Rich Health.

Kris: What else can you tell us about Rich Brother, Rich Sister?

Robert: I did it personally, because my sister has taught me a lot about being kinder. That was her saying, “Religion is kindness.” And I think we could all use a little bit more of that.

Tenzin: And for myself, it’s about being tougher, speaking up more and jumping into the game more. That’s been another lesson for me, and it’s been a pleasure to speak with you.

Kris: Well, it was just a delight to talk with you both, and just wonderful to see [the] inspiration and education you both brought to people that desperately need it in this world. Thank you so much for joining us today on New American Health.

Robert: Thank you, Kris. It was an honor to speak with you.

Tenzin: Thank you, Kris.